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Can I safely assume that satelite limit 3/tech level will also be 1/spire level for xerj?

Yes! You are tottally right, my bad.

This was indeed confusing. I should have said "if for the last upgrade to get planet I paid 100". Still, if CRP of level of spire is 1.7 and 3 levels are needed to get planet it means CRP for planet is 9.5.
And now you say current spire has problem of high initil cost. Initial cost of spire is way less then initial cost of tech (at least for xerj).

In your calculations you are showing Cost(L+3). What you should check is Cost(L+1) + Cost(L+2) + Cost(L+3) because this is cost required to bump number of planets using spire. It's what I am trying to point out from the very first post.

This is exactly how it works. 3 levels of spire do not have CRP equivalent of 1.7^3. 3rd level from the current has, but I still need to build 1st and 2nd before 3rd, right? If up to level x I paied 100 units, then to get to level of x+3 (which is next planet) I need to pay:
x+1 -> 100*1.7
x+2 -> (100*1.7)*1.7
x+3 -> ((100*1.7)*1.7)*1.7

100*1.7 + (100*1.7)*1.7 + ((100*1.7)*1.7)*1.7 = 950.3 giving CRP 9.5 in terms of gaining additional slot for planet.

Now you show that is cheaper for xerj. True at some point, because of different initial costs, but in the long term the sum of geometric progress is given by:

initial_cost * (1-CRP^level)/(1-CRP)

will always follow CRP^n and not initial_cost. Here some plots for the difference to play with. a,b will be initial costs, n number of planet slots:
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=plot+y%3D+a*%281-9.5%5Ex%29%2F%281-9.5%29+-
+b*%281-5.5%5Ex%29%2F%281-5.5%29%2C+x+in+%5B1%2C+10%5D

Said all that it might be that within resonably accessable range of levels, like you say, it's mostly fair. But in hyphotetical long term it is for sure not.

Would you admins be so kind and redo your math? This is huge nerf to xerj making it so much more expensive to get more objects compared to other 2 races.

In order to increase number of planets by 1 toss and terran needs to invest 5.5 more then for previous increase.
In order to increase number of planets by 1 xerj needs to upgrade spire by 3 levels with CRP 1.7, so 1.7 + 1.7^2 + 1.7^3 = 9.5 times more then for previous increase. It's not 3*1.7 which would be comparable.

If you want to just move colonization to building, while keeping long term balance then I think CRP of spire needs to be reduced from 1.7 to 1.3 to match with colonization CRP 5.5. (5.2 vs 1.3 would be really close).


Also I think it would be fair to issue resources from technology being removed week before planets are forcfully decolonized. You say we can use it to cover expanses, but the way change is described we actually need to put all the construction costs upfront. Not to mention building spire to 21 or 24 takes huge ammount of time.

Ah, I see! Somehow I did not think about all those OPSs with insect. That is actually nerfing others more then xerj. I take it back.

Avarage cost of moon for xerj is around 20M metal + 20M mineral. Even bit less if you are fine with smaller size. You might be doing it wrong if you get such a high expected cost.

I think it's a nerf for majority of people. It's only potential for biggest players. Also in the topic you link the guy is actually complaining about that increasing time to travel.

I am considering dunk change yet another nerf ;) It's how much? 250M metal just to get to the previous values. It's quite an amount of dunks you would need to have to make it more efficient to lvl up the tech instead of insectoid.

Thank you. I like the general direction with amortization, def buff and OPSs more available for small players. I'll just wait and see where it goes.

From the ideas I think allowing trading from bestiary lvl1, but thaere is already something in ssenate about it. And dunk could use local coord speed and some way of preventing being stopped by a single gun rather then regeneration. But I am probably not the best player to judge if it make sense.

I cannot help but notice that most of the recent changes are nerfing xerf the most:

- production on main buildings cut down by 15% - terran also
- scourges dmg reduced (again)
- visibility changes. This is small nerf as it affects everyone but xerj was the only race that could get this from officer
- OPS changes. This is actually big. One of the advantages of xerj was cheap station building. In return they get no realiable usage for GG, with only one (veeery expensive) officer and no techs to support. Now OPSs are easier to get which balances down advantage from dunks, but xerj still has no gravity guns. On top of that xerj is only race using ships to propagate network. OPSs cannot be captured but planetoids still can be destroyed
- bestiary range. Affects everyone but still xerj suffer the most since it is the race building markets.
- hangar buffed, vikings buffed, fastling - nerfed
- L/R turrets buffed

All other changes since May are even. I really hope there is something behind it and "the change" is coming. Otherwise this looks to me like, maybe unintentional, but still very ugly trend.

cheers!

*acid spores?
*of shields?

I have a small suggestion, please here me out before throwing meat!

It would be really nice to calculate zerg regen for the remaining rounds after combat finished and before applying extra destruction. It does not change any balance (at least not much) as I can already be sitting there and clicking my ships out of range untill they recover some hp and only let them finish off at the and of last round. But it's such a silly and annoying thing to have to do.
Other races do not care at all as regainied shields do not impact amount of losses. What's done in combat is done.

Also I really bellive that zerg got hit by this change the most in terms of fighting pirates (which is currently the biggest source of resource). I am not talking about fighting other people. This change does not affect it almost at all.

They did that while ago and reverted the change.

I think Megumin you are wrong about zerg. HP regen is not so great as you describe. It's 2.3 CRP tech with 0% base value and half effect on flagships. Compared to toss shield regen it's really crap. And zerg units have lowest shield values of all races making them susceptable to those losses more. What is strong about zerg is shield bypassing which now going to cause losses even when outnumbered. But zerg used to be like that with scourges. Now scourge is totally useless since dmg has been cut in half and gas prices went almost double.

I also do not understand all this crying about flagships. How is it different from other ships regarding the change? You basically loose % of hip value depending on %n of hp lost. It will be more small ships or less flagships. Expected value is same, just more variance

RNG, but imho we need something to make big fishes not completely lossless. Now throw in some meat to fight for.

Queens can be removed by destroying level of building. Queens can be destroyed by psi detector. Queens can be eaten by lex. With changes to fog of war it is very difficult to even find a spot for your queens. Production from mines are very small part of resources income you should be getting, more comes from pirates, raiding, destroying objects. If you relly on mines only you are doing it wrong.
Now zerg do have queens but have no reliable access to gravity gun. There is only OPS that an be stolen. I would trade all my queens for GG any time.

I am not sure toss is most handicaped. Try to find spots for queens that zerg economy rely on

Ok guys, but visibility of commets is bit too much... The mining is so slow you need to send a ton of recyclers to make it work. Now if you do someone will just knock them down for exp. This will really kill the market. Mines production is rubish and with no reliable vespane flow to bestiary there is no way to hunt pirates either. That will also havely handicap amount of other resources flowing from the map to players. This basically mean fleets are suddenly way more expensive (in a sense of time required in the game to build them) and everyone that already have a big one is in huge advantage. What is the plan here? I Really think you are underestimating what huge disturbance to the game economy this part of changeset brings. Am I missing something?

I might be the only person that actually likes the change... Now go make dmg go to the lowest hp unit in the group instead of spreading it so that small fleets still do something to bigger ones and we good!